My Paternal Ancestry - Neils, O'Neills and McNeils

The following is an account of my research into my paternal ancestry starting with my great, great, grand-father, Thomas Neill. It quickly becomes obvious that the surname, Neil, in records that authenticate this history can also be Neill, O'Neil, McNeil and any number of variations of these spellings. Since the same person can go under all these names in various documents regarding the vital events of their life, I think it is clear that they are sometimes the inventions of the officials who entered the records more than the informants. When I quote a specific document, I use the name as written in that document but, for the sake of clarity in telling the story, I have settled on a sort of common denominator name as seen above in the generation links.

To quickly go a specific generation or event regarding this family branch, click on the Q icon at the bottom left of the screen and follow the links from there. The ^ icon, bottom right, gets you back to the top of any page you are on.

Thomas Neil and Agnes Feran

The history of the Neil family, as far as we have ascertained, starts with Thomas Neill who was married to Agnes Feran. The original searches conducted for me by the Scots Ancestry Research Society (SARS) had uncovered a marriage of my ancestor John Neil to a Sarah Cassidy. This showed that John's parents were Thomas Neil (Handloom Weaver) and Agnes Fern and in that record John is said to be aged 23 in 1860 so this gave us a probable date of birth of circa 1837. So we would naturally look for a birth for him around 1837 and possibly in Glasgow. The SARS reported :

“Search for birth of John Neil/O'Neil circa 1837 - There was no record found of his birth on the microfiche of extant births in the old parochial registers of Glasgow. Nor was there any record on the International Genealogical Index (a non-comprehensive index collected by the Mormons) for Lanarkshire. ”
[source]

However, I had been in correspondence with Elizabeth D. Smith of the Glasgow and West of Scotland Family History Society about this and she said in a letter to me dated 4th Sep 1989

“I decided that as Thomas Neil and Agnes Fern were probable Roman Catholic, there might be a record of John's birth in the Archdiocese of Glasgow records. I made an appointment and was told that there was no Catholic church in Gorbals in 1837 so children were baptised at St. Andrew's Cathedral in Clyde Street. I searched all through 1837 and then 1838, no luck so I decided to go back to 1836 and I found him. Details enclosed.”
[source]

The entry in the register of births showed that John Neill was the lawful son of Thomas Neill and Agnes Feran. He was born 14th April 1836 and baptised 4th July 1836. The name of Sponsors were Felix McPake and Helen Edmund and the clergyman was Peter Forbes. Mrs. Smith posted me a written transcript of the entry but it was not until twenty-three years later that I was able to access a copy of the original register page on the Scotland's People web site. A search of the index to the records showed a likely candidate [source] and when the copy of the page was viewed the entry appeared thus.

[source]

The web site of St Andrew's Cathedral describes the situation for the growing Catholic population in Glasgow at this period. The lack of small, local, churches or chapels in which to to baptise their children meant that for many baptism in the Cathedral was the only option. They say:

“For the first two centuries after the Reformation there was practically no Catholic presence in Glasgow, but by the end of the 18th century Glasgow's industrial expansion was attracting many Catholic workers from Ireland and parts of the Scottish Highlands. Scotland 's Catholic Hierarchy was restored in 1878, and Charles Eyre was named the first post-Reformation Archbishop of Glasgow. In 1884 the Chapter of Canons was re-erected and subsequently St. Andrew's became the Cathedral of the re-established Archdiocese. In 1947, with the establishment of the new Dioceses of Motherwell and Paisley, the Archdiocese of Glasgow recovered the metropolitan status which it had had before the Reformation and St. Andrew's became a Metropolitan Cathedral. ”

So, I didn't know a lot about Thomas and Agnes at this point. They were seemingly of the Catholic faith but we had not found any recorded marriage of the couple. At John's marriage in 1860 they were both apparently dead so we can imagine they died between 1836-1860 but ! was unable to find any death registered for them so I was at a bit of a dead-end.

On this question the SARS concluded

“there was no record of this marriage (Thomas Neil/O'Neil and Agnes Fearns) on the microfiche index to the old parochial registers or on the International Genealogical Index for Lanarkshire.”
[source]

“There was no record (of the death of Agnes Fearns [Ferns] or Neil [ONeil]) found by cross-referencing the surnames in the General Index of Deaths for Scotland between 1855 and 1860.”
[source]

“There was no record of his (Thomas Neil/O'Neil) death in the General Index of Deaths for Scotland between 1855 and 1860.”
[source]

“As we do not know where, when or to whom Thomas Neil/O'Neil was born our investigation was here concluded.”
[source]

“As we do not know where, when or to whom Thomas Neil or O'Neil was born, it may well not be possible to identify his birth - if indeed it was recorded. It is noted that the marriage of John Neil and Sarah Cassidy was in the United Presbyterian Church and this may explain why earlier entries were not found in the (predominantly Church of Scotland) old parochial registers. There are some non-conformist registers for various churches in Glasgow, but there is no general index, nor are individual registers indexed. It is also possible that Thomas (O`) Neil came from Ireland.”
[source]

The above suggests the possibility that Thomas and Agnes were Irish and this is certainly possible but it is also possible that they were highlanders - or at least one of them could have been. Very many highlanders migrated to Glasgow at this time.

in recent years a couple of interesting possibilities have emerged; one of these concerned the death of a Thomas Neil in Cathcart but, despite looking promising initially, it turned out to be the wrong person.You can read something of this Thomas Neil's life here .

Over the years I have conducted searches trying to find out more about Thomas and Agnes and, quite recently, due to the release, online, of more of the Catholic registers, I did discover a probable other son to them - a Patrick McNeil (sic) born in 1833

[source]

The detail is:

"Augt 26 Patrick lawful son of Thomas McNeil and Agnes Feran born about (two?) weeks ago was baptized by me on the 26 of August 1833. Sponsors Margt. Dixon. (signed by clergyman) William Hearst."

I could not find any other children born to Thomas and Agnes but I looked at other records to see if I could find anything more about them and Patrick. With help from James Oakes at the Glasgow and West of Scotland Family History Society,I did find a very interesting family in the 1841 census but only on "FreeCen" - all the other sites I looked at - "FindMyPast", "Ancestry" and "Scotland's People" - had no record of this family. When I eventually found the original document it was evident that all these organisations had mistranscribed the entry in one way or another. “Ancestry.com” listed the family headed by Agnes Feren but the children were given the surname McMerl (!). “Find My Past” had them as as McMul and even Scotland's People had it wrong. A salutary lesson. In the end, I was able to find the following family at Muirhead Street in Glasgow on 6 June 1841.

[source]

This shows that Agnes Feren is the head of household and she is living with two of her sons. Charles McNeil is said to be 14 years of age and John McNeil is aged 4 so born circa 1837 - just as our John was. This fits and, despite Agnes going by her maiden name of Feren, would seem to be the right family. This might also mean that Thomas had died prior to 1841. Incidentally, we will see other family members living at Muirhead Street later.

Over the years, I have kept returning to Thomas and Agnes but they remain largely elusive. So too with their sons Patrick and Charles. Until more comes to light I move on to the events in the life of their son, John.

John Neil and Sarah Cassidy

The Cassidy Family: from Ireland to Scotland

From John Neil's marriage registration we know that he married Sarah Cassidy. She was recorded as being aged 20 in October 1860 so at the 1851 Census would have been around 10 years old. We also knew that her father was John Cassidy, a labourer, and her mother was Bridget Cassidy. Here again Mrs. Elizabeth D. Smith had done more work for me and found this family in the census returns for Eaglesham. [source] She gave the address as 27 (?) Polnoon Street, Eaglesham, Renfrewshire and she gave the details for John and Bridget Cassidy and also John and Ann Cassidy, lodgers.

[source]

Strangely, when I accessed the ”Find My Past“ web site, the family had actually been indexed as living at ” Back Land, Pit Street, Eaglesham, Renfrewshire“ This contradiction plus the ”lodger“ issue made me want to view the original document. I looked on the the Scotland's People web site. Unfortunately, the image that was delivered to the screen was so over-exposed it was near impossible to read. A request to the web site for a clearer image resulted in me receiving another image by email that was a little clearer but still did not show a clear address. It looked very much like the address was probably on the previous census page. I looked at that page and it was similarly difficult to read but on balance I think that it read "Pit Street Back Land"

[source]

I bought a copy of the transcribed entry from the "Find My Past" web site and this showed the following.

[source]

Comparing the three sources we conclude that there is a conflict of addresses that is, as yet, unexplained. Mrs Smith was wrong when when she said that John and Bridget were ”Head“ and ”Wife“, the image of the census page shows that they are described as ”lodgers“. This does not change the meaning of the situation in my opinion. It is clear that the Cassidys were all one family and they all lived as lodgers in the household of John Muirhead.

The return also indicates that all the Cassidy's were born in Ireland and John and Bridget are living with two daughters and a son. Sarah is 10 (as we would expect), Ann is eight and John is six. They are all living in Eaglesham in Renfrewshire. We know from a later census that John and Bridget Cassidy had another child born before Sarah and named Patrick. He was born circa 1838 in Ireland. Perhaps we can assume, then, that their marriage might have taken place circa 1838 or before in Ireland. By 1851 they were living in Eaglesham and since their youngest listed child at the 1851 census was born in Ireland in 1845 they most likely made the move from Ireland to Scotland between 1845 - 1851. This was, of course, the period of the Irish Potato Famine.

The Marriage of John Neil and Sarah Cassidy

I do not really know much about John Neil's early years. As we have seen, there is a good chance that we have the right John at the 1841 Census where he is living with his brother, Charles and his mother - who is using her maiden name of Feren - and when we do find him again it is not until 1860 and this is on the occasion of his marriage to Sarah Cassidy.

As mentioned above, the original research conducted for me by the SARS had found John at his marriage which was recorded in the civil register of marriages in the district of Hutchesontown in the Burgh of Glasgow. Their report recorded the following.

“ Marriage of John O'Neill and Sarah Cassidy
On 15 October 1860 at 148 Hospital Street, Glasgow, Marriage (after Banns) was solemnized between us according to the Forms of the United Presbyterian Church. John Neil, aged 23, iron turner, journeyman, bachelor, of 54 Main Street, Glasgow. The son of Thomas Neil, handloom weaver and Agnes Fern (both deceased) AND Sarah Cassidy, aged 20, cotton factory worker, single, of 54 Main Street. The daughter of John Cassidy, labourer and Bridget Brannan. BMD Hutchesontown“
[source]

It is not immediately obvious why John and Sarah should have married "according to the Forms of the United Presbyterian Church" rather than the Catholic Church. The Church of Scotland "does not regard marriage as a sacrament and ministers are free to marry people who are not members of the Church of Scotland" but it still seems a little strange.

The researcher for the SARS has named this person John O'Neill in the title of the paragraph because they had been working backwards from the later birth of a son where he is referred to as O'Neill but as we can see below he was actually registered as John Neil at his marriage.

[source]

This entry is difficult to read in the online format but we also obtained a written transcript in extract form :

[source]

This registration shows a little more information than the SARS report. It indicates that John Neil married Sarah Cassidy on 15th October 1860 at 148 Hospital Street, Glasgow, after Publication of Banns According to the Forms of the United Presbyterian Church. He is described as an Iron Turner (Journeyman), a bachelor, aged 23, usual residence 54 Main Street, Glasgow. He is the son of Thomas Neil, Handloom Weaver, (deceased) and Agnes Neil ms Fern (deceased).

Sarah Cassidy is described as a Cotton Factory Worker, Single, aged 20, usual residence 54 Main Street, Glasgow. She is the daughter of John Cassidy, Labourer and Bridget Cassidy ms Brannan. Both John and Sarah signed (x) with their marks. The officiating minister was Jno M Thomson, Minister UP Church and the witnesses were Marght Lech and John Pettigrew (signed). The marriage was registered on 15 October 1860 in the district of Hutchesontown in the Burgh of Glasgow.

From this certificate we get lots of interesting biographical detail. We find that both of John's parents are dead; we get a birth date for him which enabled us to find his birth in the parish registers (see above); we have occupations for both of them; we get Sarah's parents names including her mother's maiden name of Brannan. In fact we know from later documentation that Bridget Brannan's parents were Patrick Brannan and Annie McAdam. We can also see that neither of them could sign their names but used an x as their mark instead. We do not know why they were married according to the rites of the United Presbyterian Church.

We see from the details on this certificate that both John and Sarah are said to be living at 54 Main Street in August 1860.

Mrs. Elizabeth D. Smith tried searching the 1861 Census for Scotland for a John Neil born circa 1836 living with a Sarah Neil born circa 1841. She did not find them but she did come across a John McNeil and Sarah McNeil living with a family headed by a John Cassidy and his wife was Bridget Cassidy. The address was 54 Main Street, Gorbals.

[source]

This translates as :

(There are some Thomas Annan photographs of Main Street in "Photographs of the Old Closes and Streets of Glasgow 1868/1877 with a supplement of 15 related views" published by Dover Publications Inc 1977. ISBN 0-486-23442-8" Plates 39,40, 43.) and Glasgow University has an interesting web page about the photographs in this book and Thomas Annan in general.

Despite the McNeil name, this is clearly the same family. John and Bridget are the ages we would expect as are their children, Ann and John. They also have two additional children listed, Patrick aged 22 an unmarried labourer born in Ireland and James, born just after the previous Census in 1851. James is the first Cassidy to be born in Scotland helping to give us a migration date for the family (see above)

It is not obvious why John and Sarah are called McNeil nor why they are described as "lodgers" but they are clearly the same couple, living with Sarah's mother and father, four other Cassidy children and six other lodgers.

I actually discovered the baptism of James Cassidy in the baptismal registers of St. Mary Immaculate, Glasgow

[source]

James lawful (son) of John Cassidy and Bridget Brannan (born) 28 Dec 1851 (bap) 7 Jan 1852, (residence) Eaglesham (sponsor) Susan McGuire

To summarise, we have located the father and mother of our John Neil (Neill, McNeil), his birth and baptism and his marriage to Sarah Cassidy. We also know that Sarah was Irish and we have found her family and a likely period for their migration to Scotland. The 1861 census was taken barely six months after they married so our next question would be, what about their children and could we find out more about them from the other sources available to us ?

The Children of John Neil (aka McNeil, O'Neill) and Sarah Neil (ms Cassidy)

A search for children to John Neil and Sarah Cassidy using the IGI revealed that a year and a day after the 1861 census was taken John and Sarah had their first recorded child, John Neill, followed by Agnes, Elizabeth, Sarah, Mary, Thomas and James. The IGI shows the following births all registered in the district of Hutchesontown, Glasgow. [source]

John O'Neill born 9 April 1862

John's birth registration reads :

[source]

This records that John O'Neill was born at 9pm on 9th April 1862 at 11 Kirk Street, Glasgow. He is the son of John O'Neill an Iron Turner (Journeyman) and Sarah O'Neill ms Cassidy who were married 15 October 1860 in Glasgow.John registered the birth and signed (x) with his mark. The birth was registered on 10th April 1862 in the District of Hutchesontown in the Burgh of Glasgow.

[source]

I also found his baptism

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John Lawful (son of) John O'Neil & Sarah Cassidy birth day 9 April 1862, date of baptism 20 April 1862. Sponsor Bridget Cassidy. Baptismal register of St. John the Evangelist, Portugal Street, Gorbals, Glasgow

This John O'Neill is our direct ancestor so we will return to him again. In the meantime we wanted to find the other children.

Agnes Neil born 3 July 1863

We searched for the birth of the second child we knew of and we discovered the entry for Agnes Neil :

[source]

This records that Agnes Neil was born at 4.40pm on 3rd July 1863 at 135 Main Street, Glasgow. She is the daughter of John Neil an Iron Turner (Journeyman) and Sarah Neil ms Cassidy who were married 15 October 1860 in Glasgow. Sarah registered the birth and signed (x) with her mark. The birth was registered on 8th July 1863 in the District of Hutchesontown in the Burgh of Glasgow.

I also found two baptismal entries on the same register page for Agnes' birth. Each is only 3 lines apart on the page and the first one gives the date of baptism as the 20th July 1863

[source]

Agnes Lawful (daughter of) John Neil & Sarah Cassidy birth day 3 July, date of baptism 20 July 1863. Sponsor Bridget Sharkey. Baptismal register of St. John the Evangelist, Portugal Street, Gorbals, Glasgow

The second entry is

[source]

Agnes Lawful (daughter of) John Neil & Sarah Cassidy birth day 3 July, date of baptism 21 July 1863. Sponsor Elizabeth Sheedy. Baptismal register of St. John the Evangelist, Portugal Street, Gorbals, Glasgow

Obviously a confused priest

Death of Agnes Neil d. 15 March 1866

When I came to look at the 1871 Census I did not find Agnes listed as being with the family and I wondered why. It could just have been that she was visiting another household but just in case this wasn't the situation, we did a search of the statutory indexes of deaths between her birth date and the census date and turned up a registration for her that explains this.

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Agnes died, aged 3, on 15 March 1866 at 11am from Bronchitis. She died at 135 Main Street, Glasgow and the informant was her father, John Neil, Iron Turner Journeyman. He is recorded as putting his mark on the registration which was made the day after her death. Her mother is said to be Sarah Neil ms Cassidy. I looked but could not find a burial registration for Agnes.

Looking at the list of births that we found in the IGI we notice that there is a bit of a gap between the birth of Agnes and the birth of the next child, Elisabeth and, really, I would have expected to find a child in that gap but a search of the statutory births index does not throw up any obvious entries that would fit. Neither could I find anything in the Catholic baptismal registers, so we move on to Elisabeth

Elisabeth Neil b 18 January 1867

We searched for the birth of the third child we knew of and we discovered the entry for Elizabeth Neil :

[source]

This records that Elisabeth Neil was born at 12.15am on 18th January 1867 at 135 Main Street, Glasgow. She is the daughter of John Neil an Iron Turner and Sarah Neil ms Cassidy who were married 15 October 1860 in Glasgow. Sarah registered the birth and signed (x) with her mark. The birth was registered on 29th January 1867 in the District of Hutchesontown in the Burgh of Glasgow.

I also found her baptism

[source]

Elizabeth Lawful (dau of) John Niel & Sarah Cassidy birth day 28 January 1867, date of baptism 30 January 1867. Sponsor Agnes Neil. Baptismal register of St. John the Evangelist, Portugal Street, Gorbals, Glasgow

It is interesting to see that the sponsor is Agnes Neil

At the 1871 Census we see Elisabeth, aged 4, living at 151 Main Street where she lives with her mother and father and older brother John, aged nine years, and younger sister, Sarah, aged two years. At the next Census in 1881 she is aged thirteen years and a scholar and she is the oldest of the children still at home. Under her were Sarah aged twelve, Thomas aged seven, Charles aged four and Mary aged 2.

Sarah Neil b 5 Aug 1868

The next child born to John and Sarah Neil was Sarah. Her registration showed the following

[source]

This records that Sarah Neil was born at 6 am on 5th August 1869 at 135 Main Street, Gorbals, Glasgow. She is the daughter of John Neil an Iron Turner (Journeyman) and Sarah Neil ms Cassidy who were married 15 October 1860 in Glasgow. Sarah registered the birth and signed (x) with her mark. The birth was registered on 16th August 1869 in the District of Hutchesontown in the Burgh of Glasgow

I could not find a baptism for Sarah

We see Sarah, aged two years at the 1871 Census when she is living at 151 Main Street with her parents and her brother John, aged nine and her sister, Elisabeth, aged four.

By the next census in 1881 she is living with her parents at 4 Surrey Street, Govan. The family is much bigger now with four children in total in the household, two girls and two boys. She is aged 12 and a scholar.

Mary Neil b 5 May 1871

The next child born to John and Sarah Neil was named Mary. Her registration showed the following :

[source]

This records that Mary Neil was born at 10 pm on 5th May 1871 at 137 Main Street, Gorbals, Glasgow. She is the daughter of John Neil a Coal Carter and Sarah Neil ms Cassidy who were married 15 October 1860 in Hutchesontown District of Glasgow. Sarah registered the birth and signed (x) with her mark. The birth was registered on 16th May 1871 in the District of Hutchesontown in the Burgh of Glasgow This is a little clearer in an extracted copy of the entry I obtained, although they misread Main Street as Marn Street ! [source]

I could not find a baptism for Mary though there is a possible Mary Neil born 1871 in Glasgow,Gorblas,Lanarkshire. She is baptised in St Francis's but due to the way it has been written it is ambiguous.

As we will see later, at the 1881 Census, which was the first census after Mary was born, we found a Mary listed but she was not aged 10 years but only three years. This suggested to me that the first Mary had died and this is exactly what I found. A search of the death registrations for a Mary Neil between 1817 and 1879 (when the second Mary was born) The image of the entry was as follows :

[source]

Here we see that Mary Neill (sic) died on 14 Oct 1871, aged 5 months, at 137 Main Street, Gorbals, Glasgow. She was the daughter John Neill (Iron Turner Journeyman) and Sarah Neill (ms Cassidy). She died as a result of Pneumonia (2 weeks). There was no medical attendant and the death was reported by her father, John, who signed with his mark. The death was registered on 16 Oct 1871.

It is not untypical for the period in Glasgow to see a high rate of child mortality. John and Sarah's first child, Agnes, had died, aged three, from bronchitis in 1866 and now we see their third child, Mary, dying of pneumonia aged five months.

A month before Mary was born, the 1871 Census was taken. This showed the family at a fairly developed stage. When we last got a snapshot of John and Sarah, at the 1861 census, they were living in the household of Sarah's parents. We have seen some new addresses at the birth registrations so what was their situation in April 1871:

1871 Census

Again Mrs. Elizabeth D. Smith had looked up this entry for me but I later downloaded an image of the census pages. This is a good example of the need to make sure that you read surrounding pages in a census return when an entry is at the top or the bottom of a page because this family is spread over two census pages. The illustration below is a cut and paste of the two. The original first page can be seen here [source] and the second page here [source]

Transcribed it reads :

Interestingly it shows the family as living at 151 Main Street not 137 Main Street. (indicating that the family may have moved from no 151 to no 137 between August of 1869 and April of 1871). John Neil, head of household, is described as aged 46, a Masons Lab(ourer) born Lanark, Glasgow. This would mean that he was born circa 1825. In fact we know that he was born in 1836 so this is ten years out. This is, of course, not unknown in census returns so for the moment we just make a note of it. Apart from that all the details for the known children at that date, John, Elizabeth and Sarah are correct. As we have seen above, Agnes had died, aged three, in 1866. and their next child, Mary, was to be born one month after the census was taken.

I wondered what had become of Sarah's parents so I looked at the index to the 1871 census searching for her father, John Cassidy who had been born circa 1814 in Ireland. We could not find him nor could we find Bridget for some reason so we looked for their son James born circa 28 Dec 1851 and we found the family living at 11 Kirk Street, Gorbals.

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The fact that they are living at Kirk Street seems to indicate that at the birth of John O'Neill in 1862 the Cassidy's had moved from 54 Main Street to Kirk Street. It may have been that his parents, John and Sarah, were still living with the Cassidy's at that point or merely that Sarah was living with her parents for the birth of her first child - not an unusual situation at all.

In any case we see some changes with the Cassidy's. John has died since the last census in 1861. Bridget is said to be a fish dealer but has mysteriously only aged three years since the last census. Ann is not with the family group any more but Patrick, John and James are. Patrick and John are said to be Carters and James a Labourer “Store”.

We decided to look for the death of John Cassidy between the two census dates and with a rough birth date of 1814 +/- 5 years. Only two entries were returned in the index to the statutory death registrations and only one of those in Glasgow but this was not the correct person. Looking at the Catholic burial registers brought up a possible entry for a burial at St Peter's Dalbeth Cemetery but at this point it is still speculative.

Returning to the children, the next child born to John and Sarah was another boy - named Thomas

Thomas Neil b 28 December 1872

[source]

This records that Thomas Neil was born at 9 am on 28th December 1872 at 135 Main Street, Gorbals, Glasgow. He is the son of John Neil an Iron Turner (Journeyman) and Sarah Neil ms Cassidy who were married 15 October 1860 in Hutchesontown District, Glasgow. Sarah registered the birth and signed (x) with her mark. The birth was registered on 13th January 2873 in the District of Hutchesontown in the Burgh of Glasgow.

I found a baptism for Thomas:

[source]

Thomas Neil leg (son of) John and Sarah Cassidy Rel. Cath/Prot. 175 Main Street. Date of birth 28 Dec 1872. Date of Baptism 2 Jan 1873. Name of Sponsors Ann Kelly and Edward Boyle. St. Francis Church, Gorbals, Glasgow

This entry is written in an unusual (though in my experience not that uncommmon) way this has led to a misindexing at least on the FindMyPast web site. The person filling the register in puts the Surname of the child before his forename and then omits the surname from the fathers name. So he has written Neil, Thomas (son of) John and Sarah Cassidy. It is clear that what is meant here is that the father is John Neil and the mother is Sarah Cassidy. Nevertheless the person indexing the entry has been over literal in sutting the parents down as John Cassidy and Sarah Cassidy. Whilst this may be a literal translation, it clearly is a misunderstanding otherwise every child on the page would have a surname that was not that of their father or mother.

The last child we had from the IGI list was James.

James Neil b 3 Dec 1874

The birth registration for James was as follows.

[Source]

This records that James Neil was born at 6. 30 am on 3rd December 1874 at 135 Main Street, Gorbals, Glasgow. He is the son of John Neil, a Coal Hill Labourer and Sarah Neil ms Cassidy who were married 15 October 1860 in Hutchesontown District, Glasgow. John registered the birth and signed (x) with his mark. The birth was registered on 3rd December 1874 in the District of Hutchesontown in the Burgh of Glasgow.

James was the last child that we had from our original IGI list but there were probably others and we stood a good chance of finding them by looking at the next census in 1881.

1881 Census

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We also downloaded a transcript from the "Find My Past" web site and this showed the following

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Firstly we see that John Neil is now John O'Neil and he is allegedly aged 43 (he was 46 at the 1871 census ten years before !!) so his age continues to wander around. Sarah, his wife, is much more consistent, however. The children are all described as Scholars except Mary who was only 2 years old. John is now described as a Foundry Labourer. As we expected we also find two new children to add to the family, Charles aged 4 and Mary aged 2.

Despite the family being referred to as O'Neil in the census, we found the birth of Charles as Charles Neil !

Charles Neil b 21 August 1876

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This records that Charles Neil was born at 2:15 am on 21st August 1876 at 135 Main Street, Gorbals, Glasgow. He is the son of John Neil, a Coal Pit Labourer and Sarah Neil ms Cassidy who were married 15 October 1860 in Hutchesontown District, Glasgow. John registered the birth and signed (x) with his mark. The birth was registered on 21st August 1876 in the District of Hutchesontown in the Burgh of Glasgow.

I found a baptism for Charles:

Charles Lawful (son of) John Neill & Sarah Cassidy. birth day 20 Aug 1876. Date of baptsm 28 Aug 1876 .Baptismal register of St. John the Evangelist, Portugal Street, Gorbals, Glasgow

[source]

Mary Neil b 28 March 1879

Mary was slightly less straightforward to find as there was more than one contender in Gorbals. However we plumped for the most likely and this returned the birth of our Mary.

[source]

This records that Mary Neil was born at 8pm on 28 March 1879 at 4 Surrey Street, Glasgow, She is the daughter of John Neil Coal Hill Labourer and Sarah Neil ms Cassidy (married) October 15 Hutchesontown District, Glasgow. The birth was registered on 14th April 1879 and the informant was her mother, Sarah Neil who signed with her mark. It is notable that giving this child the name of Mary was re-using the name after the death of the first Mary in 1871.

If the 1881 Census showed us new children to John and Sarah, would we see more at the 1891 Census ?

1891 Census

When we looked up the 1891 census we found the following :

[source]

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So the answer is no. In fact we can see that most of the children are no longer in the family home and John does not appear there either. Sarah Neil is said to be a widow and I already knew of her husband's death in 1889 as one of the SARS reports noted:

Death of John Neil b.14 Apr 1836 - d. 25 Feb 1889

Death of John Neil
On 25 February 1889 at 28 Hall Side Street, Glasgow, John Neil, labourer, died aged 52; married to Sarah Cassidy and the son of Thomas Neil, coal miner and Agnes Fearns (both deceased)
Informant: John Neil, son
[source]

A search of the statutory death registers showed that only one John Neil born 1836 +/- 5 years had died between 1881 and 1991 anyway. The entry was:

[source]

This confirms that John Neil died 25 February 1889 at 28 Hall Side Street, Glasgow aged 52. It also confirms that he was aged 52 and was married to Sarah Cassidy and his father was Thomas Neil, Coal Miner (deceased) and Agnes Neil ms Fearns (deceased). The informant was his son, John Neil, who was present. His death was registered in Glasgow on the same day he died. The only new information is his cause of death which is given as “Nephritis, Chronic Bronchitis and Senile Decay”.

A useful list of old medical terms can be found at the this site and a quick look here gave the following meanings, Nephritis is inflammation of kidneys, Chronic bronchitis is not listed but presumably means the same as it does today. There are various interpretations for the meaning of the term “Senile Decay”; some of which regard it as a description of “Alzheimer's Disease” and others which regard it as a common term used for the elderly and meaning “a general decline in health for an undiagnosed condition”.

Hallside Street is a new address to us but apparently it ran from Naburn Street to Upper Camden Street in the Gorbals/Hutchesontown. Unsurprisingly It no longer exists but the Hallside name was reused in the 1990's for Hallside Place in the same area. [Source]

Returning to the 1891 Census for 4 Surrey Street we see a complete rearrangement of the family, perhaps as a result of the death of John and the maturing of the younger children. We see Sarah Neil listed as a widow aged 50 and a washerwoman born Ireland. Three of her last four children are still present -Tom aged 18 an unmarried labourer and Charles, aged 15, a Coal Carrier. Also in the house is her daughter, Mary, aged 12 and a scholar. All the children are born in Glasgow.

Missing from the sequence is James who would be aged about 17 years. I briefly searched the index of deaths for the death of a James Neil born 1874 +/- 5 years between 1881 - 1891. There was no obvious entry so I will research this more later.

Neils and Cassidys - A Summary

By now we have a developing picture of the two families, the Neils and the Cassidys. The cast of characters of these two families is as follows :

Click here for a pdf of this tree

Click here for a pdf of this tree

A Note on the Addresses of the Neils and Cassidys

In examining statutory registrations and census returns we frequently encounter registration parishes, districts etc. so it would be useful to know what all these names refer to.

It is a complicated topic but basically the Govan parish of Glasgow had been in the hands of the Church for a long period but after the Protestant Reformation in 1579 the church feued out the lands - that is to say that they gave rights to the land in return for rent to developers. Sir George Elphinstone first feued the lands of Govan and eventually they ended up in the control of the Glasgow magistrates " for the benefit of the city, the Trades' House, and Hutchesons' Hospital. The magistrates collected the rents and duties and divided them: one fourth to the city, one fourth to the Trades' House, and the remaining half to Hutchesons' Hospital. The Wikipedia entry for Gorbals goes on to explain :

“In 1790 the lands were divided into lots for development; the City acquired the old feus of Gorbals and Bridgend, and also the Kingston portion of the Barony of Gorbals; the Trades' House obtained a western section; and the remaining section lying to the east and south was allocated to Hutchesons' Hospital. The Hutcheson's Trust then sub-feud a portion of their lands to an ambitious builder, James Laurie (who) built the first house in St Ninian's Street in 1794.   The districts are now known as the Gorbals, Laurieston, Tradeston, Kingston, and Hutchesontown. What was once known as Little Govan to the east is now known as Polmadie.” 
See Wikipedia

With all the mention of addresses so far it would be easy to get a bit lost in the geography of their lives but, in fact, after the Cassidys moved from their address in Eaglesham, Renfrewshire (whether that was Polnoon Street or Back Lands, Pit Street, Eaglesham) they lived within a very small radius of each other in the Gorbals district of Glasgow.

At the marriage of John Neil and Sarah Cassidy they both register themselves as residing at 54 Main Street, Gorbals, Glasgow. This would seem to be the family home of Sarah's parents because her father is the head of the family when they are found there at the 1861 census where John and Sarah are described as McNeils and “lodgers”.

John's and Sarah's first child, John, was registered as born at 11 Kirk Street a year later. Since the Cassidy family are to be found at 11 Kirk Street at the census of 1871 we can conclude that this was the Cassidy home (incidentally, on a map of 1851, Kirk Street is seen as off Main Street, although according to Susan Miller's essential booklet, “A Guide to Glasgow Addresses: 1837-1945”, Kirk Street, Gorbals was later renamed as Oxford Street at its east end.)

After the birth of their first child, John, born at 11 Kirk Street, the Cassidy home was probably too small for more children so no doubt John and Sarah had to set up a home of theeir own. This would seem to be the case because their next three children, Agnes b. 1863, Elizabeth b 1867 and Sarah b 1869 are all recorded as being born at 135 Main Street. At the time of the 1871 Census, as we have seen, the Cassidys are still at 11 Kirk Street and Sarah's sister, Ann, is living at number 82 Main Street with her husband Hugh Henderson and their children. By that time John and Sarah appear to have moved to 151 Main Street from number 135.

Just a short time later, however at the birth and death of their daughter, Mary, the place of birth and death are both given as 137 Main Street. At the birth of their son, Thomas, on 2 Dec 1872 he is registered as being born at 135 Main Street again. This remains the case for the births of James b. 1874 and Charles b. 1876.

At the birth of their daughter, Mary, in 1879 she is registered as being born at 4 Surrey Street and the family are to be found at this address at the taking of the 1881 Census. Surrey Street is only one street away from Main Street.

When their daughter Elisabeth Neil married John Carruthers on 5 April 1885 her usual residence was given as the same address, 4 Surrey Street suggesting that John and Sarah still lived there.

In 1889 John Neil died at 28 Hallside Street but there is a possibility that this was the home of his daughter, Sarah, and her husband, William Stalker, as this was given as the usual residence of both of them at their marriage in January 1889 - just a month before her father died.

At the 1891 Census Sarah and her mother and her brother, Pat, and their children Tom, Charles and Mary and Sarah's niece, Sarah Henderson are still at Surrey Street, Glasgow and we can perhaps assume that this is still number four.

Sarah Neil is living with her son, Charles, and his wife at the 1901 census at 220c Main Street.

To summarise this :

After John and Sarah left the Cassidy household, they lived at 135 Main Street (at least between Jul 1863 and August 1869).

At some point in the next eighteen months or so they moved to 151 Main Street where they were found at the census.

At some point within the next six weeks they have moved to 137 Main Street where their daughter Mary was both born and died.

At some point in the next fourteen months or so they have returned to 135 Main Street, although this might just mean the building not the tenement flat, (where they lived at least between December 1872 and August 1876)

At some point in the next two and a half years they move to 4 Surrey Street (where they live at least between 28 March 1879 and possible 5 April 1885)

It is possible that between April 1885 and January 1889 they had moved to 28 Hallside Street, Glasgow as this is where John Neil died (or it could have been the home of his daughter Sarah Stalker) and they may have lived there as late as 1891.

By April 1891 the some remnants of both the Neils and the Cassidys are living at Surrey Street (and perhaps still no 4) as Sarah is a widow living with her sons,Tom and Charles, and her daughter, Mary, as well as her mother, Biddy Cassidy, her brother, Pat Cassidy, and her neice, Sarah Henderson.

By March 1901 Sarah is living with her son Charles and his wife Annie at 220c Main Street, Glasgow.

In March 1901 Lizzie Neil (now Carruthers) is living with her husband, John, at 4 Surrey Street, Glasgow

As we have seen, at the 1891 Census we see the weight of the Neil family shift a generation. John Neil died in 1889 and by the 1901 Census Sarah is aged 61 and lives with her son Charles at 220c Main Street. We have briefly mentioned some of the biographical events of some of our children but we are at risk of getting ahead of ourselves in the narrative so we need to return to the first son of John and Sarah, John Neil born 9 April 1862.

John Neil and Mary Ann Chrystal

John Neil's Youth

As we have seen, John and Sarah's first child was named John O'Neill at his birth registration. He was born in the household of his grandparents John and Bridget Cassidy.

[source]

His younger sisters, Agnes, Elizabeth and Sarah were all born at 135 Main Street in 1863, 1867 and 1869 respectively but by the 1871 census the family is at 151 Main Street and he is described as a scholar aged 9. He still has two sisters, Elizabeth aged 4 and Sarah aged 2 but Agnes had died of bronchitis in 1866 aged 3.

[source]

John's mother was also carrying another sister, Mary, who would be born a few weeks after this census was taken but she also died, in this case after only a few months. She died 14 October 1871 at 137 Main Street. The surname has reverted to Neil from O'Neill.

By the time of the next census in 1881 John has amassed more siblings (Thomas was born 1872, living at the family home. The census showed :

[source]

We knew from the SARS report that John married a Mary Anne Chrystal in 1880 and that she was the daughter of Timothy Chrystal and Mary McFillan so we were interested in that family's background.

Mary Ann Chrystal's Family

We looked for a birth of a Mary Ann Chrystal circa 1862 at the Family Search web site web site and we discovered the following :

This is clearly the correct entry given the combination of names so we looked for other children born to these parents and discovered these siblings :

So this gives us children born 1859, 1861, 1863 and 1867. We then looked for a marriage of Timothy Chrystal and Mary McFillan but could not find it in the index to the statutory marriage registers at the Scotland's People web site nor at the Family Search web site. Instead we looked for the birth registration of Mary Ann Chrystal and found the following :

[source]

This gives us some additional information that we did not have before. It describes Mary Ann being born on 26 June 1861 at 33 Bridgegate, Glasgow. (For a photographic image of Close No 157, Bridgegate see Glasgow University's archive of The Old Closes and Streets of Glasgow and also Thomas Annan's original book “Photographs of the Old Closes and Streets of Glasgow 1868/1877 with a supplement of 15 related views Dover Publications Inc 1977. ISBN 0-486-23442-8” Plates 36, 47, 48, 49, 54)

Mary Ann is recorded as the daughter of Timothy Chrystal, a "House Painter Journeyman" and Mary Chrystal ms Logan McFillen married 28 June 1858 Glasgow. Mary Chrystal witnessed the registration signing with her mark. It was registered 2nd July 1861 at Glasgow. This gives us an exact marriage date for Mary Ann's parents so we looked again on the Family Search web site and eventually found it by removing the mother's name from the search :

It seems that we could not find the marriage because in the IGI index Mary Ann's mother is called Marion not Mary. We thought that it would be interesting to try to locate this marriage in the statutory registers so we did a search on the Scotland's People web site and found the following entry :

This is different again. It says Timothy Crystal and Marien LcLillan and it says that the marriage took place in St. John's parish, Glasgow. I couldn't resist getting a copy of this entry :

[Source]

This isn't as confusing as all the previous indexed entries. The fundamentals are clear and show an entry for 28 June 1858 for Timothy Crystal and Marien McFillan. It reads :

“ Timothy Crystal and Marien McFillan was after due proclamation of Banns, married by me at the St. John's (C Church ?) on the 28th June 1858 in the presence of Magh Reily and Ellen O'Donell. ....Mc Chisholm (?)”
[source]

So we seem to have got to the bottom of this particular question. Mary Ann's parents were recorded in the church records for St John's parish church. They were married as Roman Catholics on 28 June 1858 and their children followed; John in 1859, Mary Ann in 1861, Elizabeth Caul in 1863 and Bridget in 1867. We might expect that there was another child between Elizabeth and Bridget but we do not know of any more children at this time.

The Chrystals in the Censuses

1861 Census

So far we have not managed to locate Timothy Chrystal in the 1851 Census but by the time of the 1861 Census we find him living at “Bridgegate, St Mary or Tron”

[source]

We can see from the above that Timothy and Mary were both born in Ireland. He is said to be born circa 1838 and she is said to be born circa 1829. This is perhaps a surprising age difference but, as we will see, it is repeated at the 1881 census. John was born a year after they married and Mary was due to be born three months after the census was taken.

1871 Census

We have not been able to find the family in the 1871 census.

1881 Census

The fact that we have lost the family between the 1861 and 1881 censuses means that we miss any reference to Mary Ann. At the 1881 Census she would have been aged nearly twenty years and, as we have seen above, she married John Neil in 1880 when she was aged 19. Her sister, Elizabeth is at the family home, however and she is now aged 17 and is unmarried and unemployed. We did not know why Bridget (b. 1867) did not appear as present in the household so we checked the index to the statutory death registrations for Lanarkshire. We found this entry

I did not download the image of the actual registration entry because I was certain that this was the correct child.

[source]

The ages of Timothy and Mary (here called Mary Mcf) are different to the 1861 Census. In 1861 Timothy was said to be born circa 1838 and here it is 1834. In 1861 Mary was said to be born circa 1829 and here it is 1824. In each case there is about a five year difference. Both these censuses should have used exact ages and not rounded down to the nearest five years as was the case with the 1851 census so this remains a mystery. We find at the 1891 census that their ages at birth are 1828 for Timothy, 1835 for Mary and their daughter Elisaeth has gone from 1864 to 1866 ! All very confusing.

On an 1858 map of the Gorbals, Rutherglen Loan runs from Main Street to South Wellington Street where it became Rutherglen Road.

Before moving focus from the Chrystal household and returning to the situation of John Neil and Mary Anne Chrystal we took a quick look at how the household were at the 1891 Census.

[source]

Here we see the same three people as ten years previously, although they have moved house to Muirhead Street (which was can be seen just off Rutherglen Loan in the heart of the Gorbals in the 1858 map). Timothy Chrystal's occupation remains house painter but by now Elizabeth is a Tobacco Worker but still unmarried.

As far as ages go, Timothy is said to be born circa 1838 which agrees with the 1861 Census but not the 1881. Mary is said to be born circa 1835 which contradicts both the 1861 Census (she is said to be born circa 1829) and the 1881 Census (she is said to be born circa 1824). Even Elizabeth is said to be aged 25 giving her an approximate date of birth of 1866 when we know she was born in 1863 !

There is also a granddaughter who is said to be born circa 1881 and this is the daughter of John Neil and Mary Anne Chrystal who married in 1880 and to whom we return to.

Before leaving this family, however, a quick summary of the family is useful :

I did try looking for the Chrystals at the 1901 Census but could not find them. I later found the death of Timothy Chrystal :

[source]

It reads :

Timothy Chrystal Housepainter (Journeyman) Married to Mary McFillin died at 2:45am on 9th June 1897 at 194 Main Street, Glasgow. Male 65 years. Son of John Chrystal, Farmer (deceased) and Bridget Chrystal , ms Cavanagh (deceased). Acute Hepatitis 7 Days. Informant was Elizabeth Chrystal, Daughter (present), who signed with her mark. Registered 9th June at Glasgow (1897 Deaths Page 147) District of Gorbals in the Burgh of Glasgow
[source]

Summary of the Chrystal Family

Timothy Chrystal and Mary McFillan were married and the register recorded them as Timothy Crystal and Marien McFillan. They were married in Glasgow on 28 June 1858. Their son, John Chrystal, was born 3 July 1859. At the 1861 Census we find them at "Bridgegate, St Mary or Tron" and from this return we find out that the parents were born in Ireland although John was born in Glasgow. Shoertly after the census their daughter, Mary Ann Chrystal was born - 26 June 1861 at Close No 157 Bridgegate, Glasgow. Elizabeth Caul Chrystal was born 20 October 1863 and Bridget Chrystal born 1867. We know that Bridget Chrystal died the following year.

We lose the family until the 1881 Census when Timothy and Mary Mcf (sic) are living at 108 Rutherglen Loan with their daughter, Elizabeth who is aged 17, unemployed and unmarried. Of course their son John would be 22 at this point and Mary Ann would be twenty. (she married the previous year as we will see shortly)

By the 1891 Census the Chrystals are living at Muirhead Street, Gorbals with their daughter Eliza who is still unmarried but now has a job as a tobacco worker. Strangely she has only aged eight years since the last census was ten years previously. This family never seems to be recoded the same way twice. Name spelling change constantly with the mother and peoples ages are inconsistant.

Also at the Muirhead Street address on that day was Mary Ann Neil, a granddaughter aged ten and a scholar.

On 9 June we find Timothy Chrstal dead at 194 Main Street, Glasgow.

It should be mentioned that we have found additional material on the Chrystals with quite a lot about their origins. I have not researched this myself so I cannot vouch for it; I would need to verify it to my own satisfaction but nevertheless the information I found on a “public tree” on the Ancestry web site looks to be an interesting avenue of future research. A summary of this information can be found here.

The Marriage of John Neil and Mary Ann Chrystal

Returning to the marriage of John Neil and Mary Ann Chrystal, the SARS research had located his marriage six months before the 1881 Census where we had found that he was no longer resident with the family.

“ Marriage of John Neil and Mary Ann Chrystal
On 2 Oct 1880 at St. John's Chapel, Portugal Street, Glasgow, after Publication according to the Forms of the Roman Catholic Church. John Neil, contractor's carter, bachelor, aged 19, of 4 Surrey Street, Glasgow. The son of John Neil, boiler maker's labourer and Sarah Cassidy
AND
Mary Anne Chrystal, tobacco spinner, spinster, aged 19, of 108 Rutherglen Loan, Glasgow. The daughter of Timothy Chrystal, house painter, journeyman and Mary McFillan. BMD Gorbals ”
[source]

We saw earlier that St. John's Chapel, Portugal Street, Glasgow was the place Mary Anne's parents married in 1858.

The SARS reports had already given us the detail of this marriage registration but since John is a direct descendant we wanted to see a copy of the actual registration which showed some minor additional information :

[Source]

This registration image confirmed that that John and Mary Anne had been married according to the forms of the Roman Catholic Church. John Neil signed with his (x) mark and this was witnessed by a person whose name we cannot read. He is described as a contractor's carter, bachelor, aged 19, of 4 Surrey Street, Glasgow. The son of John Neil, boiler maker's labourer and Sarah Neil ms Cassidy. Mary Anne Chrystal also signed with her (x) mark. She is said to be a tobacco spinner, spinster, aged 19, of 108 Rutherglen Loan, Glasgow. The daughter of Timothy Chrystal, house painter, journeyman and Mary Chrystal ms McFillan. There are also two witnesses one of whom signs with a mark (x). This person appears to be Margaret Brown (?).

The Children of John Neil and Mary Ann Chrystal

The 1881 Census was taken six months after John and Mary Anne married and a search of the indexes show the couple living at 4 Surrey Street.

[source]

We have already seen this address. It was the address that his sister Mary was born in 1879 and then at the same 1881 Census his father, mother and siblings, Lizzie, Sarah, Thomas, Charles and Mary are all listed as resident at 4 Surrey Street. Clearly these are discrete households within the same address - probably flats or apartments.

I looked at the census returns for all the residents at 11 Surrey Street but there were no more obvious relatives. In total there were twenty six "heads" of household ranging from single people to a maximum occupancy of nine. The household of John's parents John and Sarah at the same address held eight occupants so not quite the biggest household. For John and Mary Ann it was only two occupants but there were three "households" that were single occupancy. In total 119 people counted at 4 Surrey Street at the taking of this census.

A search of the IGI, the statutory birth registers and the Catholic baptismal registers of St. John the Evangelist Church in Portugal Street in Gorbals produced the following

Mary Ann Neil b 16 Jul 1881

This shows that Mary Ann Neil was born at 4:30am on 16 July 1881 at 108 Rutherglen Loan, Glasgow. She is the daughter of John Neil, Contractor's Carter, and Mary Anne Neil ms Chrystal. The parents are said to have married Oct 2 1880 Gorbals District, Glasgow. JohnNeil was present and made his mark. It was registered 25 Jul 1881 at Glasgow.

[source]

I have a record of her baptism as well.

Mary Ann lawful child of John Neil and Mary Chrystal born the 16th day of July 1881 was baptised by me on this 1 day of Aug 1881. Sponsors .... and Cath. Brannan. Extract from baptismal register of St. John the Evangelist, Gorbals.

[source]

Sarah Neil b 10 Sep 1883

This shows that Sarah Neil was born at 8:30pm at 176 Main Street, Glasgow, the daughter of John Neil, Contractor's Carter and Mary Anne Neil ms Chrystal who are said to have married Oct 2 1881 Gorbals District, Glasgow. The informant is Mary Anne Neil, mother, who signed with her mark. It was registered 1 Oct 1883 at Glasgow.

[source]

I have a record of her baptism as well.

Sarah lawful child of John Neil and Mary Anne Chrystal born the 11th day of Sept 1883 was baptised by me on this 18th day of Sept 1883. Sponsors .... and Lizzie Neil. Extract from baptismal register of St. John the Evangelist, Gorbals

[source]

My search of the online indexes to the Catholic baptismal registers revealed a big gap between the birth of the above Sarah and the next child I knew of, Agnes, in 1888 - see below. This might indicate a missing child between 1885 - 1887 say. To try to resolve this gap I downloaded all the statutory births to Neil surnames in Govan, Gorbals, Hutchesontown and Calton between 1883 to 1900 to try to find further children to John and Mary Ann. I looked at some of these and thought that an Elizabeth Neill born in Gorbals in 1866 was a good candidate. I could not understand why it had not been flagged up earlier in my search but perhaps it was because I had a search criterion that the father should be John Neil. When I looked at the FindMyPast transcription of this Elizabeth Neil, it indicated that the father's name was John Crystal. An examination of the actual register entry showed that this was caused by the priest not bothering to put the father's surname in the "name of parents" box because he already included the paternal surname in the name of the child which is written in as "Neill, Elizabeth" so there was no further need to write the father's surname again. This can be seen clearly in the following:

Birth of Elizabeth Neill 11 Feb 1886

Neill, Elizabeth lawful (child of John and Mary Ann Crystal, RC, Hallside Street, (born)11 Feby 1886, (baptised) 22 Feby 1886. Sponsors Elizabeth Crystal. Extract from baptismal register of St. Francis, Gorbals.

[source]

Interestingly, this baptism is recorded in the register at St. Francis, Gorbals rather than St. John the Evangelist, Gorbals where both Mary Ann (1881) and Sarah (1883) were baptised. The mention of Hallside Street in the entry, however, is a good clue that she is one of "ours" as, as we have already seen, her grandfather, John Neil, died at 28 Hallside Street in 1889 and there is a possibility that this was the "usual residence"" of her aunt Sarah when Sarah married William Stalker in 1889

As we shall see shortly, this child was not present at the taking of the 1891 census and the following entry in the burial register of St. Peter's Cemetary, Dalbeath shows the likely reason.

Death and Burial of Elizabeth Neill 17 Mar 1888

[source]

The age of this Elizabeth is given as two years and one month - exactly the age of "our" Elizabeth. Her cause of death is starkly stated as "burned". Nine days after this child was buried another was delivered - Agnes.

Agnes Neil b 26 March 1888

[source]

This shows us that Agnes Neil was born at 9am on 26th March 1888 at 33 Salisbury Street, Glasgow, the daughter of John Neil, contractor's carter, and Mary Anne Neil ms Chrystal. The parents had been married on 2 Oct 1880 in the Gorbals District of Glasgow. Mary Anne Neil was the informant and she signed (x) with her mark. The birth was registered on 4 April 1888 at Glasgow.

I have a record of her baptism as well.

Agnes lawful child of John Neil and Mary A. Chrystal born the 26th day of March 1888 was baptised by me on this 2nd day of April 1888. Sponsors Sarah Neil and ......

[source]

John Neil b 1 June 1890

[source]

This shows that John Neil was born at 00.30 pm on 1st Jun 1890 at 31 Salisbury Street, Glasgow. His father is John Neil, Builder's Carter, and Mary Anne Neil (ms Chrystal). The parents were married 2 Oct 1880, Gorbals District, Glasgow. The birth was registered on 5th June 1990, Gorbals District, Glasgow. The informant was John Neil, father, but it is not indicated if John signed his mark or not.

I also have a baptismal registration for him

John lawful child of John O'Neill and M.A.Chrystal born the 24th day of May 1890 was baptised by me on this 9th day of June 1890. Sponsors Sarah O'Neill and .......

[source]

The births of these children are summarised when we see the family at the 1891 Census where we found they were living at 31 Salisbury Street.

[source]

As we saw above, their first daughter, Mary Ann, was found staying with her Chrystal grandparents when this census was taken. They lived at Muirhead Street, Gorbals and Mary Ann was listed as Granddaughter, aged 10, Scholar. We can assume that she normally lived with her parents, however. Sarah, Agnes and John are all still present in the household with Sarah now a scholar. As we saw, Elizabeth had died, aged 2, in 1888.

Returning to the census we see the son, John is said to be aged 1 year so born 1890. As we have seen above, John senior's father, also John, had died at 28 Hallside Street on 25 Feb 1889 aged 52. We can assume that this John - their first son - was named after him. The John who died at Hallside Street was married to Sarah Cassidy and her mother, Bridget Cassidy, died later in 1891.

The Death of Bridget Cassidy ms Brannan 25 Dec 1891

We recall that at the 1891 Census Bridget (Biddy) Cassidy was found living in the household of Sarah Neil. She was aged 70 according to that census and she is described as a widow. In her death registration, which was extracted for me by Mrs. Elizabeth Smith, she is described as being aged 71, the widow of John Cassidy, farm labourer. She died, somewhat gloomily, at 6.15 am on 25 December 1891 and had been suffering from bronchitis for 1 month. She is said to have died at 29 Salisbury Street but we do not know why this is the address when earlier in the year she was living with Sarah at 4 Surrey Street (although we do know that John and Mary Ann Neil lived at 31 Salisbury Street at the 1891 census and, as we will see shortly, at 21 Salisbury Street at the 1901 Census. She is said to be the daughter of Patrick Brannan, farm labourer and Annie Brannan ms McAdam (both deceased). The death was registered on 26 December 1891 and the informant was given as her son, Patrick Cassidy who signed (x) with his mark. [source]

Returning to the children of John Neil and Mary Ann Chrystal, the next child we found was:

Birth of Timothy Chrystal Neil b 13 Jan 1893

We already knew of the birth of Timothy Chrystal Neil from the SARS report which said.

Birth of Timothy Chrystal Neil
Timothy Chrystal Neil born 13 January 1893 at 31 Salisbury Street, Glasgow, son of John Neil, contractor's carter and Mary Ann Chrystal.
BMD Gorbals

[source]

I also found the statutory registration of his birth:

[source]

Timothy Neil born at 5pm 13th January 1893 at 31 Salisbury Street, Glasgow, the son of John Neil, Contractor's Carter and Mary Anne Neil (ms Chrystal) who were married 2nd Oct 1880 in the Gorbals District, Glasgow. Registered on 1st Feb 1893 in Glasgow. The informant was Mary Anne Neil who signed (x) with her mark. It was witnessed by William Potter(assistant registrar). Ref 644/12/0035.

I also found a baptism for him

Timothy Lawf Child of Joh Neil and Mary Anne Chrystal. Born 13 day of Jany 1873 was Baptised by me on this 19th day of Jany 1893. Sponsor Elizabeth Chrystal. St John the Evangelist, Portugal Street, GOrbas

[source]

Other children I found were:

Elizabeth Chrystal Neill b 25 June 1895

I found a civil registration for Elizabeth Chrystal Neil

[source]

Elizabeth Chrystal Neill was born at 8.30 am on 25th June 1895 at 122 Naburn Street, Glasgow, the dau of John Neill, Carter and Mary Anne Neill (ms Chrystal) who were married 2nd Oct 1880, Glasgow. The birth was registered on 16th July 1895 in Glasgow. The informant was Mary Anne Neil who signed (x) with her mark.

Elizabeth Chrystal Neil lawful child of John Neil and Mary Ann Chrystal RC, Address Naburn Street was born 25 June 1895 baptised 1 July 1895. Sponsors Elizabeth Chrystal and Bernadine (?) O'Neill. St Francis, Gorbals, Glasgow

[source]

Susan Logan Neil b 7 Oct 1897

I found a civil registration for Susan Logan Neil;

Susan Logan Neil was born at 3.40 pm on 7th October 1897 at 31 Cumberland Lane, Glasgow, the dau of John Neil, Contractor's Carter and Mary Anne Neill (ms Chrystal) who were married 2nd Oct 1880, Glasgow. The birth was registered on 25 October 1897 in Gorbals District, Glasgow. The informant was Mary Anne Neil who signed (x) with her mark. It was witnessed by Jno Brown (registrar). Ref 644/12/1210.

[source]

And aslo a baptismal record:

[source]

Susan Logan Neil lawful child of John and Mary Ann Neil ms Chrystal, Address Cumberland Lane was born 12 Oct 1897 baptised 19 Oct 1897. Godmother Elizabeth Chrystal. St. John the Evangelist, Portugal Street, Gorbals, Glasgow

Charles Neil b 30 Apr 1889

We searched for Charles' birth between 1899 and 1901 but none were registered in Gorbals or any of the other usual parishes for the family. Two were for St Rollox and one for Blythswood. We opted to look at the latter and came up with the following.

[source]

Charles Neil was born on 30th April 1899 at 105 Stockwell Road, Glasgow. He is the son of John Neil, Carter and Mary Anne Neil ms Chrystal. The parents were married 2nd October 1880 in Glasgow. The birth was registered on 8 May 1899 at Glasgow. The informant was John Neil, father.

Again, I found a baptismal register entry for Charles

[source]

Charles Neil legit child of John Neil and Mary Ann Chrystie (sic)born 30 Apr 1899 baptised 7 May 1899. Sponsors John Henderson and Julie Davies (?). St. Andrew's Metropolitan Cathedral, Glasgow

The Family at the 1901 Census

Again, the census gives us an apportunity of an overview of the family; a snapshot taken on 31 March 1901

[source]

[source]

I have found one other child born to John and Mary Anne after 1901 and that was Isabella, born just three months after the 1901 census was taken.

Isabella Neil b 12 July 1901

[source]

Isabella Neil child of John and Mary Anne Neil ms Crystal, Address 21 Salisbury Street was born 12 July 1901 baptised 21 July 1901. Godparents Thomas Mullen and Sarah Mullen. St. John the Evangelist, Portugal Street, Gorbals, Glasgow

So this is the chidren as we know it from the foregoing information.

From the 1901 Census, we see that of their ten children, only Mary Anne and Sarah are working, the former as a "Tobacco Spinner" and the latter as a "Hankerchief Hemmer". We also know that the next child, ELizabeth, who was born 11 February 1886, had died by 1888. All the other children are scholars or too young for school. Jumping forward another ten years will allow us to see what developments in the family took place next.

1911 Census

In 1911 John and his remaining children at home are to be found at 6 Eglinton Lane, Glasgow

[source]

This shows a much reduced family. The Neill's are now said to be "boarders". The enumerator had originally written "lodger" and then corrected it. “Boarders” sat at the same table as the head of the household and his family but a “lodger” did not, hence the expression “board and lodgings”.

John is described as a Coal Carrier and for some strange reason he is recorded as being born in Ayr !

John's age is correct but Mary Ann's is not. It is written that she is aged 40 but it is possible that the deterioration of the ink means that this originally read 48 which would be right. In any case she is said to have been married for 22 years which would be correct. She is said to have been married for 22 years and she has had 10 childre, 8 of whom are still alive.

Susan, aged 13, and Charles, aged 12 are the only children remaining at home. I looked for the deth of an Elizabeth Neil who was born in 1901 and found the following:

Death of Isabella Neil buried 8 September 1908

[source]

No death date is given for Isabella but the burial register for St. Peter's Dalbeth Cemetery says that she was buried 8 September 1908. She was aged 12 and died from Bronchitis

Summary of the Family of John Neil and Mary Anne Chrystal

Mary Ann Neil b 16 Jul 1881

We have already seen that Mary Ann was born in 1881 and we found her again still living with the family at 21 Salisbury Street, Gorbals at the taking of the 1901 Census where she is described as single, aged 19 and a "Tobacco Spinner". As a result of research done for me by Mrs. Elizabeth Smith we also know of her marriage in 1907.

[source]

This tells us that Mary Ann Neil married John Rogan on 1 April 1907 at St.Luke's Chapel, Glasgow according to the forms of the Roman Catholic church. Mary Ann is described as aged 26, a spinster and a tobacco factory worker. She is the daughter of John Neil, Carter, and Mary Ann Neil ms Chrystal. John Rogan is described as being aged 31, a bachelor and a mason's labourer. He is the son of John Rogan, Shoemaker and Rose Rogan ms Cullen (deceased). The usual residence for both people is given as 174 Govan Street, Glasgow. The minister was Patrick W Ryan and the witnesses were Hugh McGuiness & Philomena Martin. It was registered in Glasgow, April 1907. We do not know any more about Mary Anne for the moment.

Sarah Neil b 10 Sep 1883

We know that at the 1891 Census she was a scholar and ten years after that she was a “handkerchief hemmer”. We did a search on the Scotland's People web site for marriages of Sarah Neils between 1900 - 1920 and there was only one for Gorbals so we looked up the image of the registration :

[source]

This shows that Sarah Neil married Robert John Fullerton on 13th December 1904 at St. John's Church, Portugal Street, Glasgow according to the forms of the Roman Catholic Church. She is described as being aged 21, a spinster, employed as a Tobacco Spinner, daughter of John Neil, carter, and Mary Ann Neil ms Crystal (sic). Her usual address is 2 South Stirling Street, Glasgow.

Robert John Fullerton is described as aged 26, a bachelor, a Contractor's Carter, son of John Fullerton , Gasworks Labourer, and Eliza Ann Fullerton ms Tolbert (??) His usual address is 1 South Stirling Street, Glasgow. The marriage was registered on 5th January 1905 at Glasgow.

The minister at the church marriage was John B Mclusky and the witnesses were Peter Dempsey and Mary Folan. Both the parties to the marriage and the witnesses signed their names

We tried looking for a Robert Fullerton in the same household as a Sarah in the 1911 Census and we did find a likely option.

This is the right age for Robert senior and the name below could well be a son who would have been born circa 1907 but we did not pursue this further but it would certainly be fruitful.

As I have mentioned earlier ther is a gap between the birth of Sarah in 1883 and the next child born in 1888. This may have been the period in which two children did not survive as discussed above.

Agnes Neil b 26 March 1888

We only knew of Agnes from Census returns so we wanted to locate her birth around 1888. In fact a search of the index to the statutory birth registers only came up with one.

[source]

This shows us that Agnes Neil was born at 9am on 26th March 1888 at 33 Salisbury Street, Glasgow, the daughter of John Neil, contractor's carter, and Mary Anne Neil ms Chrystal. The parents had been married on 2 Oct 1880 in the Gorbals District of Glasgow. Mary Anne Neil was the informant and she signed (x) with her mark. The birth was registered on 4 April 1888 at Glasgow.

We know from census returns that she was living at 31 Salisbury Street in 1891 and by the 1901 Census she was a scholar living at 21 Salisbury Street.

We went on to look for a marriage of an Agnes Neil between 1909 to 1918, when she would have been aged between 21 and 30 but could not find any obviously likely entry - that is to say no entry for the usual parishes we might expect for the family. We also looked for the death of an Agnes Neil between 1901 when we know she was alive (Census for 21 Salisbury Street) and 1969 when she would have been eighty one years old but we could not find a suitable entry here either. A reasonable conclusion might be that she was one of the Agnes Neil marriages we saw from the earlier search but as we do not know what parish to look at we stopped here.

John Neil b 1 June 1890

The next child born to John and Mary Anne was John. We looked for births around 1890 and found this.

[source]

This shows that John Neil was born at 00.30 pm on 1st Jun 1890 at 31 Salisbury Street, Glasgow. His father is John Neil, Builder's Carter, and Mary Anne Neil (ms Chrystal). The parents were married 2 Oct 1880, Gorbals District, Glasgow. The birth was registered on 5th June 1990, Gorbals District, Glasgow. The informant was John Neil, father, but it is not indicated if John signed his mark or not.

We know from later census returns that John was still with his parents at 31 Salisbury Street at the census of the following year (1891). Ten years after that he is described as a scholar aged 10 and now living at 21 Salisbury Street.

I did look for a marriage for a John Neil in the Calton (Glasgow), Glasgow, Gorbals, Govan and Hutchesontown districts between 1908 (when he would have been aged about 18 years) to 1940 (when he would have been aged 50 years) and I came up with three in the Gorbals area - one in 1913 and two in 1916. John would have been 23 in 1913 so I plumped for that one and it turned out to be the correct one.

[source]

This shows that John Neil married Mary McKenna on 24 March 1913 at St. John's Church, Portugal Street, Glasgow according to the forms of the Roman Catholic Church. He is described as being aged 22, a bachelor, employed as a Coal Dealer's Assistant (it could read boat dealer but this is very unlikely) son of John Neil, Coal Dealer (deceased), and Mary Ann Neil ms Crystal (sic). His usual address is 10 Eglinton Lane, Glasgow.

Mary McKenna is described as aged 22, a spinster, a Fancy Box Maker, daughter of James McKenna, Cabinetmaker (deceased) and Agnes Burke (previously McKenna, ms Miller (deceased) Her usual address is 50 Commerce Street, Glasgow. The marriage was registered on 26th March at Glasgow. The officiating minister at the original marriage was John B Macluskey and the witnesses were Charles McKellar and Annie Gordon. The registrar was Jno Brown.

Of particular note here is the reference to John Neil as deceased and we will return to this after we look at the rest of his children. The next born was my own grandfather, Timothy Chrystal Neil.

Timothy Chrystal Neil b 13 Jan 1893

We already knew of the birth of Timothy Chrystal Neil from the SARS report which said.

Birth of Timothy Chrystal Neil
Timothy Chrystal Neil born 13 January 1893 at 31 Salisbury Street, Glasgow, son of John Neil, contractor's carter and Mary Ann Chrystal.
BMD Gorbals

[source]

This was fairly minimal information so we really wanted to the original registration of his birth.

[source]

This indicates that Timothy Chrystal Neil was born at 5pm 13th January 1893 at 31 Salisbury Street, Glasgow, the son of John Neil, Contractor's Carter and Mary Anne Neil (ms Chrystal) who were married 2nd Oct 1880 in the Gorbals District, Glasgow. The birth was registered on 1st Feb 1893 in Glasgow. The informant was Mary Anne Neil who signed (x) with her mark. It was witnessed by William Potter(assistant registrar). Ref 644/12/0035.

We next see Timothy living with the family at the 1901 Census for 21 Salisbury Street, Govan where he is living with his mother and father and five sisters and two brothers. He is aged 8 and a scholar.

Elizabeth Chrystal Neill b 25 June 1895

We only really knew of Elizabeth's birth from the census return for 21 Salisbury Street, Govan in 1901 when she is recorded as “ Lizzie ” aged 6, a scholar. So he would have been born circa 1895. A search of the statutory birth registers threw up both an Elizabeth Chrystal Neill and an Elizabeth Neil in 1895, both registered in Hutchesontown. The Elizabeth Chrystal Neill seemed the obvious one to go for although both were probably related in some way. We started with Elizabeth Chrystal.

[source]

This indicates that Elizabeth Chrystal Neill was born at 8.30 am on 25th June 1895 at 122 Naburn Street, Glasgow, the dau of John Neill, Carter and Mary Anne Neill (ms Chrystal) who were married 2nd Oct 1880, Glasgow. The birth was registered on 16th July 1895 in Glasgow. The informant was Mary Anne Neil who signed (x) with her mark. It was witnessed by W H Black (assistant registrar). Ref 644/11/1507.

I am not sure what the Naburn Street address means. So far, it is a new address in the family's history. In any case when we next see Elizabeth it is at the 1901 Census when she is living with her parents at 21 Salisbury Street, aged 6 and a scholar. She is not present at the next census of 1911 when she would have been aged 16. There could be many reasons for this but for the moment we set her aside and move on to her sister Susan.

Susan Logan Neil b 7 Oct 1897

We know of Susan from two census returns. The first is that of 1901 when she is said to be aged 3 so born circa 1898. We looked for births of a Sarah Neil circa 1898 in various parishes surrounding the Gorbals and came up with a Susan Logan Neil whose birth was registered in Gorbals in 1897. There was no other likely candidate so we looked at the image of the registration.

[source]

This indicates that Susan Logan Neil was born at 3.40 pm on 7th October 1897 at 31 Cumberland Lane, Glasgow, the dau of John Neil, Contractor's Carter and Mary Anne Neill (ms Chrystal) who were married 2nd Oct 1880, Glasgow. The birth was registered on 25 October 1897 in Gorbals District, Glasgow. The informant was Mary Anne Neil who signed (x) with her mark. It was witnessed by Jno Brown (registrar). Ref 644/12/1210.

We next see Elizabeth it is at the 1901 Census when she is living with her parents at 21 Salisbury Street, aged 3. She is living with her parents and four sisters and three brothers. At the next census of 1911 we find the much reduced family of only her father and mother one sister and one brother living as "boarders" in the house of Alex Kemp. (see above - endnote 60). Here she is listed as aged 13 and a scholar.

We looked for a marriage for Susan between 1915 and 1950 and the most likely entry we saw was for a Susan Neil marrying in 1917 in Gorbals.

[source]

This shows that Susan Neil married John Connor on 29 September 1913 at St. John's Church, Portugal Street, Glasgow according to the forms of the Roman Catholic Church. She is described as being aged 19, a painter, employed as a Munitions Worker, daughter of John Neil, Coal Carter (deceased) and Mary Ann Neil ms Chrystal(deceased). Her usual address is 10 Eglinton Lane, Glasgow.

John Connor is described as aged 22, a bachelor, an Electricity Works Labourer. (Driver, Royal Field Artillery son of John Connor, Engineer's Labourer (deceased) and Rose Ann Connor ms Cameron. His address is given as "on active service". The marriage was registered on 1st October 1917 at Glasgow. The officiating minister at the original marriage was Patrick Wm Ryan and the witnesses were Patrick McCusker (?) and Agnes Wyte. The registrar was Jno Brown.

We note from this that Susan's mother was also said to be deceased and we will return to her death as well as her husband's death after looking briefly at the last son, Charles.

Charles Neil b 30 Apr 1889

We first learnt of Charles from the census return for 21 Salisbury Street, Govan where Charles is the youngest child, aged just one year and he is living with his mother and father and five sisters and two brothers. We next see him at the 1911 census where he is living with his mother and father and his sister Susan, all of them "boarders" in the household of Alex Kemp at 6 Eglinton Lane, Govan. He is now aged 12 and a scholar.

We searched for Charles' birth between 1899 and 1901 but none were registered in Gorbals or any of the other usual parishes for the family. Two were for St Rollox and one for Blythswood. We opted to look at the latter and came up with the following.

[source]

This shows that Charles Neil was born on 30th April 1899 at 105 Stockwell Road, Glasgow. He is the son of John Neil, Carter and Mary Anne Neil ms Chrystal. The parents were married 2nd October 1880 in Glasgow. The birth was registered on 8 May 1899 at Glasgow. The informant was John Neil, father. Ref 644/07/0213.

We also found his marriage.

[source]

This shows that Charles Neil married Marion Barrett on 21st March 1924 at St. John's Church, Portugal Street, Glasgow according to the forms of the Roman Catholic Church. Charles is said to be aged 24, a bachelor and works as a carter. He is resident and 10 1/2 (ten and a half) Eglinton Lane, Glasgow. He is the son of John Neil, Coal Dealer (deceased) and Mary Ann Neil ms Chrystal (deceased).

Marion Barrett is said to be aged 23, a spinster and is a Cotton Mill Worker. She lives at 4 Surrey Street, Glasgow and is the daughter of Richard Barrett, Clothlapper and Flora Barrett ms Morrison (deceased). The marriage was registered on 24th March 1924. The witnesses were William Shearer (?) of 236 Eglinton Street, Glasgow and Jane Cameron of 9 Cavendish Pl, Glasgow.

We were given a big clue about where to find this marriage by reading an online posting on the “ The Association of O'Neill Clans " website As we mentioned earlier with respect to the death of our ancestor Thomas Neil, a poster on this site, Matt J Neil, was discussing his connection to Thomas Neil through his ancestor Charles Neil. This is the Charles that connects him. He describes his descent from Charles as follows.

[source]

The Deaths of John Neil and Mary Ann Chrystal

The Death of John Neil b 9 Apr 1862 - d 30 Dec 1911

As we have seen when John and Susan married, their father is said to be dead and at Charles' wedding their mother is also said to be dead. Having outlined the births and marriages of their children as best I have been able to do at this stage, I return to the parents and the deaths of John Neil and Mary Anne Neil ms Chrystal.

As we saw earlier at the marriage in 1913 of John's son, John, he is said to be deceased. We already knew of John's death from the SARS report which read.

Death of John Neil
“ On 30 December 1911 at 174 Centre Street, Glasgow, John Neil, contractor's carter died aged 51; married to Mary Ann Chrystal and the son of John Neil, labourer (deceased) and Sarah Cassidy Informant: Mary Ann Neil, widow. ”
BMD Gorbals
Source

We should remember that Sarah Neil ms Cassidy was still alive at this point in the family's history. She had lost her own husband in 1889 and we next find her at the 1901 Census living at 220c Main Street with her son, Charles, and his wife Annie. She is described as aged 61 and a Washer Woman. Her father and mother are both dead, her father dying on Christmas Day 1891. Her first son, John, husband of Mary Ann Neil (ms Chrystal) and the father of all the children we have been looking at in the last few pages, died the day before Hogmanay 1911

[source]

The entry says that John Neil, a Contractor's Carter, aged 51 years died at 174 Centre Street, Glasgow after a Cerebral Hemorrhage. He is said to be married to Mary Ann Chrystal and she signed (x) her mark as Mary Ann Neil. He is described as the son of John Neil, labourer, deceased and Sarah Neil ms Cassidy. The death was registered on 2 January 1912 at Glasgow. The cause of death was certified by P M Smyth. It can be seen from the top left of the register entry that it was the first death recorded in the Gorbals district in 1912 - although he died a few days before.

The Death of Mary Ann Neil ms Chrystal b 26 Jun 1861 - d 7 May 1916

Five years after John Neil died his wife also died. The SARS research showed.

“Death of Mary Ann Chrystal or Neil On 7 May 1916 at 10 Eglinton Lane, Glasgow, Mary Ann Neil died aged 54; widow of John Neil, carter and the daughter of Timothy Chrystal, housepainter and Mary McFillan (both deceased)
Informant: Mary A Rogan, daughter of 21 Surrey Street, Glasgow.
BMD Gorbals” SARS 15
[source]

Mary Ann's mother-in-law, Sarah Neil ms Cassidy died a few weeks later.

The Death of Sarah Neil ms Cassidy b circa 1841 - d 24 Aug 1916

The SARS research showed.

“Death of Sarah Cassidy or Neil
On 24 August 1916 at 167 Renfrew Road, Glasgow, former residence 1 Surrey Street, Glasgow, Sarah Neil died aged 76; widow of John Neil, iron foundry labourer and the daughter of Patrick (sic) Cassidy and Bridget Brannan (both deceased)
Informant: Elizabeth Carruthers, daughter, of 4 Surrey Street, Glasgow.
BMD Govan” SARS 21
[source]

Sarah's father is here said to be Patrick Cassidy; in fact he was John Cassidy. We also see that the informant is Elizabeth Neil, her daughter, who married John Carruthers.

Sarah's place of death is given as 136 Renfrew Road but her "former residence" is 1 Surrey Street. 167 Renfrew Road, Govan was the address of the Govan Combination Parochial Buildings, which included a hospital, poorhouse (simply called the Govan Poorhouse) and mental asylum. I found some posts on an online forum where one contributor had commented:

Govan Poorhouse, hospital and Asylum were all within the same grounds and were run by the Govan Parochial Board (later Parish Council) until the formation of the National Health Service when it was renamed Southern General Hospital. The Matron was a Miss Jolly. Anyone in the Poorhouse who fell ill could be transferred to the Hospital and would be transferred back once they recovered. Often the elderly with what we would see as dementia nowadays, would be admitted to the Asylum. More serious mental illness sufferers would be taken to Hawkhead Hospital which was built by the parish in the late 1800's out in what was then the countryside.

With the death of Sarah Cassidy, and John Neil and Mary Anne Neil (ms Chrystal) we have come to something of an end to an era. Before moving on to more about their son, Timothys Chrystal Neil, who is my direct ancestor, I will look briefly at the addresses in Glasgow that have cropped up during John's life.

A Note on the Addresses of John Neil and Mary Anne Neil ms Chrystal

As we have seen, John was born at 11 Kirk Street, Glasgow in 1862 which seems to have been the home of his grand-parents, the Cassidy's. His father and mother moved shortly after his birth and then lived at 135 Main Street (July 1860 - Aug 1869 at least and then 151 Main Street (April 1871 at least) but by May they were at 137 Main Street and between 1872 - 1876 at least they were at 135 Main Street again. By 1879 they are at 4 Surrey Street and that is where they are found at the 1881 census. By the birth of their daughter, Sarah, they are at 176 Main Street. As we have seen, there is a gap in the records of the family as no children are registered between 1883 - 1888 and when we pick them up again at the birth of their daughter, Agnes, they are at 33 Salisbury Street.

By the time their son, John, is born in 1890 they are at 31 Salisbury Street which is where they are found at the 1891 census. This is also the address at which they live for the birth of Timothy Chrystal in 1893 but by the birth of Elizabeth in 1895 they are at 122 Naburn Street. When Susan is born they are at 31 Cumberland Lane and when Charles is born they are at 21 Salisbury Street. They are found here again at the 1901 census. At the 1911 census they are at 6 Eglinton Lane. John died at 174 Centre Street and Mary Ann died at 10 Eglinton Lane.

What are we to make of such complications ? The first impression we have here is of a lot of mobility but these events are of different types. We can be reasonably confident of census addresses but the addresses of their children at marriage may not be so reliable in the sense that they may not record either parental home. The births of children may not always have been registered as taking place in their own homes. Lastly, John's and Mary Ann's places of death may not have been his own homes.

So before concluding that they lived a somewhat itinerant life we should be wary of building too much out of uncertain foundations. On the other hand, what we see over these years is the organic growth of a family as it swells to its maximum size before some children leave home and then eventually all the children leave home and the founding husband and wife perhaps become a part of other people's households where they spend the later years of their lives.

The nature of rented accommodation at the time meant that landlords who owned several properties were keen to keep good tenants and to take on other tenants that were related to them because this gave them some guarantee that they would get their rents. At the same time, a good landlord was worth recommending to your relatives and friends so a good relationship between landlord and tenant could be mutually beneficial helping the landlord get his rent regularly and also keep his properties fully occupied whilst allowing the tenant some flexibility to rearrange family units across properties. There can be little doubt that as family units within the wider family shrunk or grew various houses were swapped between these groups. The original house of a large family would be an unaffordable luxury when the family size shrank. Likewise, as the family size of the next generation grew they would have greater need of bigger accommodation.

It is also worth remembering that “flitting” was not such a big event when the average working class family had, by modern standards, almost no goods and chattels to speak of. Relying on an extended family for help when needed and perhaps a carter's horse, a move of this sort would be easily accomplished in a day and the amount of resettling would be minimal. This is particularly so because the moves were not geographically dramatic. All these addresses are in the Gorbals district of Glasgow and within a short distance of each other. Surrey Street was next to Main Street, Salisbury Street was two streets away, Naburn Street was also in the Gorbals as was Cumberland Lane. Salisbury Street and Eglinton Lane are close to Surrey Street and Centre Street is just over the railway track to the west.

So it is reasonable to conclude, I think, that this level of movement was restricted to a small area and may not have felt at all itinerant. The schools remained the same, all the children got married in the same chapel as their parents had and there must have been a considerable amount of continuity despite the constant redeveloping of the Gorbals and the relentless industrialization of the area.

Timothy Chrystal Neil and Margaret McDonald.

As we saw earlier, Timothy Chrystal Neil was the fifth child and second son born to John Neil and Mary Anne Chrystal. He was born 13th January 1893 at 31 Salisbury Street, Glasgow. At the 1901 Census we saw him living with his mother and father and five sisters and two brothers at 21 Salisbury Street. He is aged 8 and a scholar. We could not find him at the 1911 Census when he is not living with his parents. When we next catch up with him it is at his marriage to Margaret McDonald.

We already knew of Timothy's marriage from the SARS research but we wanted to see a copy of the actual registration which read :

[source]

This shows that Timothy Chrystal Neil married Margaret McDonald 16 July 1917 at St. John's Church, Portugal Street, Glasgow, after Publication, according to the Forms of the Roman Catholic Church. He was 24, a bachelor and a coal salesman. He was also described as a Private 1st. Royal Inniskillin Fusiliers [on active service]. He was the son of John Neil, coal salesman and Mary Ann Neil ms Chrystal [both deceased].

Margaret McDonald is described as a spinster aged 24, a wool sorter of 1 South Stirling Street, Glasgow. Her father was John McDonald, Ironmoulder and her mother was Susan McDonald ms Doogan.

The officiating minister at the church service was Patrick Wm Ryan. Interestingly even at this stage Margaret McDonald signs the church record with her mark (x) and the minister verifies this. The witnesses at the ceremony were Thomas Millen (?) and Elizabeth McGowan (?).

Children of Timothy Chrystal Neil and Margaret McDonald.

We knew of children of this couple from the SARS reports. The first of these was my father :

Birth of John McDonald Neil 15 June 1918

[source]

I ordered a copy of the certificate and it showed the following :

[source]

This tells us that John McDonald Neil was born at 4:20 pm on 15 June 1918 at 1 South Stirling Street, Glasgow, son of Timothy Chrystal Neil, coal salesman (Private 1st. Battalion, Inniskilling Fusiliers) and Margaret Neil ms McDonald. They were recorded as having married 16 July 1917 in Gorbals District. Margaret signed with her mark.The address is that which was given as Margaret's usual residence at the time of her marriage. The birth was registered on 24 June at Glasgow. It was recorded in the record of births in the district of Gorbals in the burgh of Glasgow.

The SARS also found the births of two other children :

[source]

Birth of Mary Ann Chrystal Neil born 25 November 1919

We obtained a copy of the registration of her birth :

[source]

This shows that Mary Ann Chrystal Neil was born 25th of November 1919 at 5:10 am at 1 South Stirling Street. She is described as the daughter of Timothy Chrystal Neil, Contractor's Carter and Margaret Neil ms Mc Donald and that they were married 16 July 1917 in Glasgow. The informant was Timothy C Neil, father (present) and the birth was registered 27 November 1919 in the district of Gorbals in the burgh of Glasgow.

Death of Mary Ann Chrystal Neil 7th January 1921

I looked for a marriage for Mary Ann Chrystal Neil but could find none so I looked at the death registrations and found the following :

[source]

This shows that Mary Ann Chrystal Neil died at 1 South Stirling Street, Glasgow at 4.00pm on the 7th January 1921 aged one and a half years. She is the daughter of Timothy Chrystal Neil, Carter and Margaret Neil ms McDonald. The cause of death is given as “Infantile Convulsions” as certified by David A Chalmers .... who examined the body. The informant is Margaret Neil, mother, who signed (x) with her mark. The death was registered on 8th January in the District of Gorbals in the Burgh of Glasgow.

A few months after Mary Ann Chrystal Neil died, her parents had another child, Timothy Chrystal Neil.

Birth of Timothy Chrystal Neil born 9 November 1921

Timothy's registration was as follows :

[source]

This shows that Timothy Chrystal Neil was born 9th of November 1921 at 9:45m am. at 1 South Stirling Street. He is described as the son of Timothy Chrystal Neil, Carter and Margaret Neil ms Mc Donald and that they were married 16 July 1917 in the Gorbals District of Glasgow. The informant was Timothy C Neil, father and the birth was registered 21 November 1921.

I also found his baptism in the registers of St; John the Evangelist, Portugal Street, Glasgow

[source]

This gives some of the same information and adds a godmother (Matrina fuit), Marie Currie.

Death of Timothy Chrystal Neil 26th February 1922

I looked for a marriage of a Timothy Chrystal Neil in Scotland between 1937 and 2011 and there was only one entry returned but that seemed very unlikely. I then looked at the recorded deaths and found this :

[source]

This shows that Timothy Chrystal Neil died at 1 South Stirling Street, Glasgow at 1.30 am on the 26th February 1922 aged three and a half months. He is the son of Timothy Chrystal Neil, Carter and Margaret Neil ms McDonald. The cause of death is given as "Convulsions (Teething) 1 Day" and the informant is Timothy C Neil, father (present). The death was registered on 27th February 1922 in the District of Gorbals in the Burgh of Glasgow.

It should be noted here that there is a margin entry against this that reads :

“SEE REG. OF COR. ENTRIES VOL 7 P36 29 March 1922 ”

This means that the entry is incorrect in some way. We really should obtain a copy of this to see if there is anything important pertaining to this entry that we would wish to see.

I also discovered his burial registration:

[source]

This records that Timothy Chrystal Neil Aged 0, Roman Catholic, born 1922 (sic) and died 1922 was buried 28 February at St Peter's Cemetery, Dalbeath, Glasgow. The civil registation and baptism gives his year of birth as 1921 not 1922. According to these sources he was about 3 months old.

So this family is not without its fair share of grief. But it does not quite end there. We wondered why in the SARS reports, they could find no more children born to these parents and I came across the reason why.

Death of Margaret Neil ms McDonald 31 March 1925

[source]

This shows that Margaret Neil, who was married to Timothy Crystal Neil (Railway Carter) died aged 31 years on 31st March 1925 at 11h 20m pm at Victoria Infirmary (usual residence 1 Stirling Street, Glasgow. She is the daughter of John McDonald, Iron Moulder and Susan McDonald ms Dougan. The cause of death was Laryngeal obstruction, Respitory & cardiac failure. Asthma (or Asthenia ?). as cert by R.D. Forrest M.B. CHB. The informant was T Neil, widower of 1 South Stirling Street, Glasgow. The death was registered on 1 April 1925 at Glasgow.

This left Timothy as a widower aged thirty-two with just the one child, the six-year old John, left of his three children. We might reasonably expect that in this situation Timothy would remarry.

Timothy Chrystal Neil did remarry to Jane Downs

Timothy Chrystal Neil and Jane Downs

We found the following registration :

[source]

This registration shows that Timothy Chrystal Neil married Jane Downs 16th February 1928 at 17 Monteith Row, Glasgow, after Publication of Banns According to the Forms of the Unitarian Church. He is described as a carter, a widower aged 35, usual residence 1 South Stirling Street, Glasgow. He is the son of John Neil, Coal Merchant, (deceased) and Mary Ann Neil ms Chrystal (deceased)

Jane Downs is described as a Confectionery Worker, Spinster, aged 29 , usual residence 1 South Stirling Street, Glasgow daughter of Thomas Downs, Iron Turner, and Mary Anne Downs, ms Drummond. The wedding was conducted by Richard Lee Minister..........(?) Unitarian Church, Glasgow. Some witnesses are mentioned including a Sarah Downs of 65 Main Street, Bridgeton. The marriage was registered in the District of Calton in the Burgh of Glasgow. Jane did have a sister, Sarah Drummond Downs, and the witness named Sarah Downs may have been this person. (This last little snippet of information was gleaned from the "Wilkie-Tubbie" public family tree at the Ancestry.com web site where there is a great deal more on the origins of this family tracing it back to 1774, though I have not checked it myself so cannot vouch for it personally. I did, however, look into the parentage of Jane Downs and there is more on that topic here

With this marriage came a move away from 1 South Stirling Street. We know that Timothy's first wife, Margaret McDonald, lived at 1 South Stirling Street at the time of their marriage in 1917 and both of them are still there at the birth of their children John (1918), Mary Anne Chrystal (1919) and Timothy Chrystal (1921) I also found him at the same address in the electoral registers for 1924, 1925 and, of course, this is the address given at the death of his wife, Margaret McDonald in 1925.

Both Timothy and his second wife, Jane Downs gave 1 South Stirling Street as their usual addresses when they married in February of 1928 but the 1928, 1929 and 1930 electoral registers have them at 19 Coburg Street, Glasgow This is very close to South Stirling Street being just across Bedford Street. a matter of a few hundred yards.

In the electoral registers for 1934 and 1935 we can see that they have moved and are recorded as living at 114 Wellfield Street, Springburn. This was the address where he died on 9th March 1935 as we shall see, shortly.

The Children of Timothy Chrystal Neil and Jane Downs

I did look at the birth registrations index to see if there were any Neil births in Lanarkshire between 1928 and 1934 and there were 416 so I thought it worth putting a key word into the search of “jane downs”. This returned an entry for Jane Downs Neil only so I changed the key word to just “downs” and it returned another child :

When I originally did this research I thought that there might also be a child between these two births as well as one, or more, after them. My search had not been comprehensive enough to determine this and I put it down as something to research in the future. As we will see shortly, I was not mistaken.

The Death of Timothy Chrystal Neil 9 Mar 1935

Whilst I was looking at the records I looked for a possible death of Timothy and I came across the following :

[source]

This records that Timothy Crystal Neil, Contractor's Carter aged 42 years and married to (1st) Margaret McDonald and (2nd) Jane Downs died at 3:55am 1t 114 Wellfield Street, Glasgow. His father is said to be John Neil, Coal Merchant (deceased) and Mary Anne Neil ms Crystal (deceased). THe cause of death is given as Chronic Bronchitis 3 years and Myocardial Arrest. The informant is Jane Neil widow who was present. The death was registeres 11th March 1935 in the District of Provan in the Burgh of Glasgow.

This is where I had left Timothy but, in one of those coincidences that make you think that there is no such thing as a coincidence, shortly after I discovered the second marriage of Timothy Chrystal Neil to Jane Downs I received an email from a descendant of his by this marriage. This person had come across my exchange of messages with Matt Neil on the members forum section of the Association of O'Neill Clans web site mentioned above [source] and had noticed her Grandfather's name and contacted me for further information.

This relative informed me that Timothy Chrystal Neil and Jane Downs did, in fact have more children. It seems that after the birth of Thomas Downs Neil in 1929 there were two daughters born (Mary and Sadie) before the birth of Jane Downs Neil in 1933. Furthermore there was another son born after this - Timothy Chrystal Neil who was born in 1936. It was a daughter of his who had contacted me. The story of this Timothy Chrystal Neil is one for her to relate. As for me, I turn now to my father, John McDonald Neil.

John McDonald Neil born 15 Jun 1918

John McDonald Neil's Youth

As we have seen my father, John McDonald Neil born 15 June 1918, was born a year after his father, Timothy Chrystal Neil, married Margaret McDonald.

His sister, Mary Ann Chrystal Neil, was born on 25 November 1919 when John was aged one year and five months. She died one year and six weeks later from "infantile convulsions" - John was aged two years, seven months.

Ten months later John's brother, Timothy Chrystal Neil, was born on 9 November 1921 - John was aged three years and five months. Timothy fared even worse than John's sister, dying three months and two weeks after his birth from "convusions (teething 1 day)" - John was aged three years and eight months.

John was aged six years and eight months when his mother died, aged 31, of "laryngeal obstruction, respitory & cardiac failure, asthma".

By the time my father was eighteen years old, in 1935, he had lost his father, mother, his only brother and only sister.

So this went some way to explaining why I had never met any paternal uncles or aunts and why I had never met paternal grandparents and perhaps also why nothing was mentioned of them when I was a child.

It seems that John lived most of this early life at at 1 South Stirling Street, Glasgow at least until early 1928 when his father married Jane Downs. The first of their children was born in 1929 and the last in 1935. The last of these children was born just after his father died 9th March 1935 and here the address given is 114 Wellfield Street, Glasgow.

At the time of the birth of the first of these children, Thomas Downs Neil, in 1929 John McDonald Neil had just turned eleven years old so we assume that he probably lived with this family at least for a time. When the last of the children of his father's remarriage to Jane Downs was born (Timothy Chrystal Neil in 1935) John would have been aged twenty-seven)

For reasons of confidentiality I have decided to go no further than my father's youth. If any family members are interested they can contact me and I can supply a link to further information.

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